Like any good debate, I think the answer is it depends. And it begs many questions, whether it's the historical importance of the wreck or condition, for which individual sentiment almost certainly will vary. We have a unique environment in the Lakes that may move those sliders differently from the viewpoint of those in saltwater environments as well.
While I ultimately believe action triumphs over idealism, there is still the very real question of who can claim ownership to these coveted objects. Though these wrecks are not comparable with the significance of the pyramids of Giza or Chichén Itzá, allowing those that are capable of climbing them to remove a piece as a souvenir would forever degrade their importance. In the same way, I don't view someone's conviction and capability as reason enough to lay claim to what I ultimately see as something owned by a people verses a person. Perhaps the best way to ensure that the greatest number of stakeholders are fulfilled is to leave it be. If this is not possible, preservation at a competent local museum (proximity is important contextually) or institution for the greatest number of people to experience. Ultimately, I would agree in principle that an artifact is better served on a diver's wall than reduced to rubble on the sea floor.
Admittedly I am somewhere between the armchair and explorer you mention here, surrounding myself with literature and objects in my basement while not capable enough a diver to visit most of these artifacts where they lay. Maybe I'm even a hypocrite, though no object I own is from a shipwreck. But it's all catapulted me into a nearly life-long obsession with the history of these lakes, even motivating me to pursue some of the high-stakes categories you've listed above. And while I can't claim to have earned true membership into any of those categories, I contend that those that call (or called) home the regions and ports of these wrecks have as much to gain and even more to lose by what is taken or left beneath the waves.
The debate whether or not to collect wreck relics and artifacts is thought provoking and its underlying question is even broader in it's scope. What are today's ethics in adventure activities?
Do we recover wreck artifacts to share in museums? Should we allow private divers to collect wreck artifacts as trophies? Do we allow a site like Titanic to slowly decay or attempt to preserve pieces for posterity? Should military vessels be off-limits as war graves or explored as historic sites? Should overlanders collect Native American pictographs and petroglyphs for personal use? Should archeologists disinter ancient civilizations, Native American sites, World War I and II sites to learn more and display artifacts in museums? Should descendants have input or veto rights for archeological digs, both in the US and abroad? Do we allow the private sale of dinosaur fossils or restrict fossils to research museums? Do we open wilderness area to off-road vehicles, power boats, and snowmachines so more people can access and share public land? Do we substantially limit the number of climbers and the impact on Mount Everest? Do we allow big game hunting for trophies in Africa? Do we allow any hunting of whales?
The ethics of the 1600s, 1700s, 1800s, 1900s, and now 2000s are constantly evolving. Hemingway's turn-of-the-century praise of big game hunting and bull fighting come from a totally different era than today's era of endangered species and questions of animal cruelty. Nims Purja described and photographed scenes of endless lines of climbers and piles of garbage on Mount Everest as being much different than the adventure of Hillary and Tenzing.
I think Jason did a great job of taking the issue of wreck diving and artifacts retrieval and added to the ongoing discussion of what should be the ethics of modern day adventures.
Thrilled to see this conversation surface here, and for the opportunity to share my perspective more fully than perhaps I yet have on this issue.
I'm from New Jersey, and have spent every summer of my life on the southern shore. I grew up dreaming of what must lie beneath those green-gray-blue waves, and by the summer of 2016
I was poised to finally see for myself. Earlier that year, I had been studying for my open water scuba cert, listening to an upstart podcast called The Grey Nato, and reading what would become my favorite book, Shadow Divers by Robert Kurson, all in anticipation of my first ever scuba dive in the ocean, which would be on the wreck of the Almirante.
15 miles out from Atlantic City, the United Fruit Company steamship Almirante (locally known as "The Flour Wreck") is today a low-lying morass of steel plates and rubble. She went down in 1918 after colliding with a US navy freighter, and has since been blown up three times and wire-dragged twice (read more about her sinking here: https://njscuba.net/dive-sites/new-jersey-dive-sites/cape-may-chart/almirante/). But even in this sorry state, in the dark waters of the North Atlantic, I had hardly laid eyes on a more beautiful object, 15 feet at a time through the murky depths. As a newly minted scuba boi, during the dives I was fully focused on survival, sticking close to my divemaster buddy (also named Chris, not even kidding) and trying not to futz too much with my BC inflator. But I surfaced with a conviction that I needed to return to this wreck and others like it to truly explore. As we motored back to AC, Chris gifted me a white 1x1" square mosaic tile he found in the sand -- a tiny gleaming memento from a peak formative experience that is to me as good as any pirate coin from a sunken chest.
I think we all agree that somewhere along the continuum between “every shipwreck is a sacred holy tomb” and “every shipwreck is literally wet garbage” lies the truth. My personal outlook on this situation is that those who are least involved, knowledgeable, and passionate, in my experience, tend to lean toward the former. This absolutely does not mean that this position can ONLY be held in relative ignorance. An underwater archaeologist has every natural reason to take this position, for example. I’m just saying that it’s the most dogmatically appealing to the general public. For those closest to the issue though, at scale, I think it’s something just short of the latter. To the NJ wreck diver community, it’s garbage *unless.*
I've continued to dive in Jersey at every available opportunity (which means sadly only about once a year), and my fascination with the major players on the scene has only grown with my knowledge of their gritty history and exploits, from Gary Gentile, Bill Nagle, Dan Crowell, Tom Packer and Steve Gatto, to John Moyer, Chatterton and Kohler of course, Gene Peterson, and nowadays to guys like Rustin Cassway and the Trash Panda Wreck Divers aboard the R/V Explorer, whose irreverent mantras are "Join the fight against brass pollution!" and "Nobody owns the ocean."
It's easy to recoil at that kind of brash attitude, but I would offer that not only is it intended to have that effect on outsiders, it belies what is actually taking place where it matters most. These divers know better than anyone that wreck diving isn’t about artifacts. It’s about people, and it’s about rediscovering and sharing real history that has all but disappeared from the face of the earth, let alone the public consciousness. And if we don’t allow ourselves to experience this history firsthand, it will be well and truly lost. In the end, isn’t that the worst possible outcome? The second, and final, death?
There used to be a wise proverb that said "Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes." These days, it reads more like "Before you judge a man, eat breakfast." While Jason and every commenter here has avoided the temptation to rush to judgment and remained committed to nuanced and civil discourse, can anyone say this characterizes our society at large today? This is why I feel so compelled to set the record straight on what I see going on in NJ wreck diving culture, and advocate for it as a force for good, not just to benefit those divers themselves, but as the last line of local maritime historical preservation.
War graves are different, as our nation’s (and other nations’) commitment to its servicemen and women does not fade with time. Peacetime tragedies closely surrounded by still-surviving family should also merit special respect. And there will always be other nuance and exceptions. But as a general rule, I say more power to those with the will and the way to salvage, celebrate, and share these items before they’re gone forever. But you don’t have to take my word for it. Just ask Gene Peterson: http://www.njwreckdivers.com/p/shipwreck-museum.html
Please jump in and join the conversation if you have thoughts!
So many deadeyes on that wreck! All hand carved and most likely initialed by their maker. I held one of the big brass spikes used to hold the ship together in my hands. It would've looked great on a shelf in my office, making me smile for years to come. But the thought of holding it in my hand and placing it back where I found it makes me smile all the same. I think this is one of those proverbial questions that will never have an answer.
I believe you are toying with the phrase “opening a can of worms”. There are various opinions that I would both agree and disagree with, depending on the scenario. I have such gratitude for having the privilege of diving the “Mystery Wreck”. Yes, seeing the helm was a treat, but when will Mother Nature claim the remains and turn it into Great Lakes muck?
Personally, I believe that something like a Civil War artifact is better off in the hands of a curator, rather than left half-buried in the fields of Gettysburg. Yet, there are legitimate differences between the “general public” and those with genuine interests and epistemic curiosity. Some things should be preserved to allow the public a chance to learn and see. Other things should probably be left as-is for the curious few to explore in the original setting.
Your question at hand may never be fully answered.
As a former archeologist (land version), it seems to me that the ideal is to map and work hard to collect data with as little disruption as possible. Most wrecks are also graves of noble seamen caught by the power of the sea (or the Great Lakes). A non-intrusive understanding of the wrecks while honouring the dead makes sense to me.
Like any good debate, I think the answer is it depends. And it begs many questions, whether it's the historical importance of the wreck or condition, for which individual sentiment almost certainly will vary. We have a unique environment in the Lakes that may move those sliders differently from the viewpoint of those in saltwater environments as well.
While I ultimately believe action triumphs over idealism, there is still the very real question of who can claim ownership to these coveted objects. Though these wrecks are not comparable with the significance of the pyramids of Giza or Chichén Itzá, allowing those that are capable of climbing them to remove a piece as a souvenir would forever degrade their importance. In the same way, I don't view someone's conviction and capability as reason enough to lay claim to what I ultimately see as something owned by a people verses a person. Perhaps the best way to ensure that the greatest number of stakeholders are fulfilled is to leave it be. If this is not possible, preservation at a competent local museum (proximity is important contextually) or institution for the greatest number of people to experience. Ultimately, I would agree in principle that an artifact is better served on a diver's wall than reduced to rubble on the sea floor.
Admittedly I am somewhere between the armchair and explorer you mention here, surrounding myself with literature and objects in my basement while not capable enough a diver to visit most of these artifacts where they lay. Maybe I'm even a hypocrite, though no object I own is from a shipwreck. But it's all catapulted me into a nearly life-long obsession with the history of these lakes, even motivating me to pursue some of the high-stakes categories you've listed above. And while I can't claim to have earned true membership into any of those categories, I contend that those that call (or called) home the regions and ports of these wrecks have as much to gain and even more to lose by what is taken or left beneath the waves.
Jason said “booty”... 😋
The debate whether or not to collect wreck relics and artifacts is thought provoking and its underlying question is even broader in it's scope. What are today's ethics in adventure activities?
Do we recover wreck artifacts to share in museums? Should we allow private divers to collect wreck artifacts as trophies? Do we allow a site like Titanic to slowly decay or attempt to preserve pieces for posterity? Should military vessels be off-limits as war graves or explored as historic sites? Should overlanders collect Native American pictographs and petroglyphs for personal use? Should archeologists disinter ancient civilizations, Native American sites, World War I and II sites to learn more and display artifacts in museums? Should descendants have input or veto rights for archeological digs, both in the US and abroad? Do we allow the private sale of dinosaur fossils or restrict fossils to research museums? Do we open wilderness area to off-road vehicles, power boats, and snowmachines so more people can access and share public land? Do we substantially limit the number of climbers and the impact on Mount Everest? Do we allow big game hunting for trophies in Africa? Do we allow any hunting of whales?
The ethics of the 1600s, 1700s, 1800s, 1900s, and now 2000s are constantly evolving. Hemingway's turn-of-the-century praise of big game hunting and bull fighting come from a totally different era than today's era of endangered species and questions of animal cruelty. Nims Purja described and photographed scenes of endless lines of climbers and piles of garbage on Mount Everest as being much different than the adventure of Hillary and Tenzing.
I think Jason did a great job of taking the issue of wreck diving and artifacts retrieval and added to the ongoing discussion of what should be the ethics of modern day adventures.
Thrilled to see this conversation surface here, and for the opportunity to share my perspective more fully than perhaps I yet have on this issue.
I'm from New Jersey, and have spent every summer of my life on the southern shore. I grew up dreaming of what must lie beneath those green-gray-blue waves, and by the summer of 2016
I was poised to finally see for myself. Earlier that year, I had been studying for my open water scuba cert, listening to an upstart podcast called The Grey Nato, and reading what would become my favorite book, Shadow Divers by Robert Kurson, all in anticipation of my first ever scuba dive in the ocean, which would be on the wreck of the Almirante.
15 miles out from Atlantic City, the United Fruit Company steamship Almirante (locally known as "The Flour Wreck") is today a low-lying morass of steel plates and rubble. She went down in 1918 after colliding with a US navy freighter, and has since been blown up three times and wire-dragged twice (read more about her sinking here: https://njscuba.net/dive-sites/new-jersey-dive-sites/cape-may-chart/almirante/). But even in this sorry state, in the dark waters of the North Atlantic, I had hardly laid eyes on a more beautiful object, 15 feet at a time through the murky depths. As a newly minted scuba boi, during the dives I was fully focused on survival, sticking close to my divemaster buddy (also named Chris, not even kidding) and trying not to futz too much with my BC inflator. But I surfaced with a conviction that I needed to return to this wreck and others like it to truly explore. As we motored back to AC, Chris gifted me a white 1x1" square mosaic tile he found in the sand -- a tiny gleaming memento from a peak formative experience that is to me as good as any pirate coin from a sunken chest.
I think we all agree that somewhere along the continuum between “every shipwreck is a sacred holy tomb” and “every shipwreck is literally wet garbage” lies the truth. My personal outlook on this situation is that those who are least involved, knowledgeable, and passionate, in my experience, tend to lean toward the former. This absolutely does not mean that this position can ONLY be held in relative ignorance. An underwater archaeologist has every natural reason to take this position, for example. I’m just saying that it’s the most dogmatically appealing to the general public. For those closest to the issue though, at scale, I think it’s something just short of the latter. To the NJ wreck diver community, it’s garbage *unless.*
I've continued to dive in Jersey at every available opportunity (which means sadly only about once a year), and my fascination with the major players on the scene has only grown with my knowledge of their gritty history and exploits, from Gary Gentile, Bill Nagle, Dan Crowell, Tom Packer and Steve Gatto, to John Moyer, Chatterton and Kohler of course, Gene Peterson, and nowadays to guys like Rustin Cassway and the Trash Panda Wreck Divers aboard the R/V Explorer, whose irreverent mantras are "Join the fight against brass pollution!" and "Nobody owns the ocean."
It's easy to recoil at that kind of brash attitude, but I would offer that not only is it intended to have that effect on outsiders, it belies what is actually taking place where it matters most. These divers know better than anyone that wreck diving isn’t about artifacts. It’s about people, and it’s about rediscovering and sharing real history that has all but disappeared from the face of the earth, let alone the public consciousness. And if we don’t allow ourselves to experience this history firsthand, it will be well and truly lost. In the end, isn’t that the worst possible outcome? The second, and final, death?
There used to be a wise proverb that said "Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes." These days, it reads more like "Before you judge a man, eat breakfast." While Jason and every commenter here has avoided the temptation to rush to judgment and remained committed to nuanced and civil discourse, can anyone say this characterizes our society at large today? This is why I feel so compelled to set the record straight on what I see going on in NJ wreck diving culture, and advocate for it as a force for good, not just to benefit those divers themselves, but as the last line of local maritime historical preservation.
War graves are different, as our nation’s (and other nations’) commitment to its servicemen and women does not fade with time. Peacetime tragedies closely surrounded by still-surviving family should also merit special respect. And there will always be other nuance and exceptions. But as a general rule, I say more power to those with the will and the way to salvage, celebrate, and share these items before they’re gone forever. But you don’t have to take my word for it. Just ask Gene Peterson: http://www.njwreckdivers.com/p/shipwreck-museum.html
Please jump in and join the conversation if you have thoughts!
If there were gold bullion in a wreck I’m sure there would be very little discretion!
So many deadeyes on that wreck! All hand carved and most likely initialed by their maker. I held one of the big brass spikes used to hold the ship together in my hands. It would've looked great on a shelf in my office, making me smile for years to come. But the thought of holding it in my hand and placing it back where I found it makes me smile all the same. I think this is one of those proverbial questions that will never have an answer.
I believe you are toying with the phrase “opening a can of worms”. There are various opinions that I would both agree and disagree with, depending on the scenario. I have such gratitude for having the privilege of diving the “Mystery Wreck”. Yes, seeing the helm was a treat, but when will Mother Nature claim the remains and turn it into Great Lakes muck?
Personally, I believe that something like a Civil War artifact is better off in the hands of a curator, rather than left half-buried in the fields of Gettysburg. Yet, there are legitimate differences between the “general public” and those with genuine interests and epistemic curiosity. Some things should be preserved to allow the public a chance to learn and see. Other things should probably be left as-is for the curious few to explore in the original setting.
Your question at hand may never be fully answered.
As a former archeologist (land version), it seems to me that the ideal is to map and work hard to collect data with as little disruption as possible. Most wrecks are also graves of noble seamen caught by the power of the sea (or the Great Lakes). A non-intrusive understanding of the wrecks while honouring the dead makes sense to me.
I really enjoyed your article about the dive and the photos, but what about the Benrus watch? Thanks!
Thanks. I’ve written a story about the watch for Worn & Wound, that will publish in about a month I’m told.
Thank you Jason.